nancyfulda ([info]nancyfulda) wrote,
@ 2008-06-12 09:45:00
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Has the Role of Editors Changed in the Past Fifty Years?
When I read books like Stephen King's On Writing, there is often the mention of some magazine editor whose scribbled notes at the bottom of rejection slips served as both encouragement and guiding light to the aspiring author. The particular example I'm thinking of is teenaged Stephen's note from a prominent magazine editor which read: 'Not bad, but PUFFY. You need to revise for length. Formula: 2nd Draft = 1st Draft - 10%. Good luck.'

My first impulse when I read that was: 'Good editor! That's exactly what novice authors need to hear.'

My second thought was, 'Good gracious, if I wrote something like that on a rejection note, authors would lynch me as an insensitive jerk.'

The world is different now than it was when Stephen King was starting out. Authors are networked. Anyone with an internet connection and half a brain can download tons of writing advice. There's very little that an editor can tell an author that he probably hasn't already heard (and ignored) before.

(Yes, let's face it -- most of us ignore good advice more often than we take it. It's easier than actually having to make changes.)

So here's the question for the peanut gallery: What role should magazine editors be filling in this new, technologically-connected society? We are no longer needed as dispensers of pre-packaged writing advice. We are somewhat more useful in a one-on-one situation, I think, but there isn't always time for that. What kinds of editorial feedback have you generally found most helpful?



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[info]jp_davis
2008-06-12 10:35 am UTC (link)
This is going to sound kiss-assy, but some of the best editorial feedback I got was from you-- it's one of the main reasons I looked for your blog in the first place. I don't know if you still do it, but when you first started at Baen's, you offered to the slush conference to post the reason why you stopped reading for anyone who asked. I took advantage of that, and even though I disagreed with some of what you said, it really helped me. In fact, I think your advice about one story allowed me to do the revisions that got it into the magazine, where it is right now. It answered the question I always want answered when I get a rejection: "why didn't you buy it?"

Of course, the slush conference gives a different opportunity than general mail-in slush. In general, I think any feedback an editor can give is good feedback. As far as writer lynchings, writers are going to be ticked off by anyone who does anything but love their precious baby manuscript, and there will always be new writers (hopefully only new)who are unprofessional, so lynchings must come with the territory. Editorial feedback is one of the best tools writers have to improve themselves, once you know how to use it. I'd hate to see it choked off entirely by fear of the unwashed masses.

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[info]jtglover
2008-06-12 11:09 am UTC (link)
I think there's a huge difference between editorial feedback and general advice on writing. Sometimes the latter holds true, but you're never sure until you hear it from an editor, and there's lots of outdated advice floating around out there. Nick Mamatas, who has indeed been accused of being an insensitive jerk (and worse), once made some very pointed comments about the dialogue in one of my stories. Subsequently I changed the way I write and edit dialogue, and I think it's immensely improved.

In general, I think the feedback that's always been useful is still useful. Was it a little off, a lot off, or completely wrong for the market? Did you like the story? Would you like to see more from the author? One thing you do that I like is write about what you're seeing too much of in the slush, or about your pet peeves. Pre-Internet, it was hard to know an editor's pet peeves, but these days it's a bit easier with blogs and forums.

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[info]j_cheney
2008-06-12 11:50 am UTC (link)
Editor feedback has the advantage of being about a specific story, and how it fits (or obviously, doesn't fit) their magazine. I've never gotten any useless feedback....so far...(people say there are jerk editors out there, I just haven't run across one yet)

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[info]alphastk
2008-06-12 12:04 pm UTC (link)
I've had to wrestle with how much commentary I give people. On one hand, I certainly appreciate it when I get some feedback as to "why?" However, there is a paired consideration of not wanting to offend and not having time to write a personalized reply for each submission.

And, I must admit, the temptation for unprofessional snarking can be close to overwhelming at times. Given that, I often find it easier to say nothing and just issue a form rejection. I tend to save serious commentary for stories I want to buy but can't in the form submitted along with an invite to resubmit.

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Criticism
[info]wjb3_reads
2008-06-12 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Yes, let's face it -- most of us ignore good advice more often than we take it. It's easier than actually having to make changes

I used to work in the Writing Lab at a university. The first piece of advice I always gave people was "bring it to the lab at least one week before it is due." [hyperbole] My clients tended to be two types, those who needed a fresh set of eyes to tell them "It is done already" and those who needed a week or two to fix the paper. Guess which ones brought it to us the day before it was due? [end hyperbole]

In the Writing Lab we gave the most general advice first (1st Draft early, eliminate tangents, flesh out assumptions, logical flow, etc.). Why fix a comma, when the entire paragraph needed to be deleted.

With friends I am bad and compliment one thing I like about their writings. I want to stay friends.

With acquaintances I pick the thing that annoys me the most. They gave it to me to read, therefore I am looking for mistakes that assume I am the target audience. Sometimes the critique is "I am not your target audience."

The one thing I have learned in *all* these situations, simple and concise beat complex, theoretical and overwhelming. I may or may not agree with "2nd Draft= 1st Draft -10%" but it is simple and concise.
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Critical Thinking
[info]wjb3_reads
2008-06-12 03:36 pm UTC (link)
What role should magazine editors be filling in this new, technologically-connected society? We are no longer needed as dispensers of pre-packaged writing advice.

Eric Flint makes a good argument that publishing houses will never go out of business. They separate the gold (will sell) from the earth (cannot get people to download it for free). [serious but joking] Like a hammer, a good editor can separate the gold (will sell) from the iron pyrite (shiny, but won't sell). Like cyanide, a great editor can take microscopic gold (flawed manuscript) and create a nugget (best seller). But neither can make a living out of turning lead to gold.[end joking]

I take everything I read (online, newspaper, jar of peanut butter, book, etc.) with some skepticism. I tried for 2 hours to fix my mom's garage door. I now looks like the garage door is fine, the opener is broken. An experienced repair man could have told me to check the play of the door without the opener first. Saving me 1 hour and 50 minutes. Every thing I tried to fix, was something I have fixed on a garage door before. Just like the "pre-packaged writing advice", it may be good advice, but it did not fit this situation.

A good editor can save a writer that time. The proof of a good story, did the target audience buy/ enjoy it? If the target audience is the editor, did the editor buy it?
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Beloved vs. Effective
[info]wjb3_reads
2008-06-12 03:54 pm UTC (link)
My second thought was, 'Good gracious, if I wrote something like that on a rejection note, authors would lynch me as an insensitive jerk.'

Personally, I think there are several issues you are bringing up. Being "lynched" is a problem with YouTube, Google Groups, etc. People can create a website "NancySucks.com" or a video saying "Nancy did not buy my manuscript, but my friends all think it is the next best seller."

It used to be that an individual had limited reach. David Drake talks about meeting and corresponding with his editor before submitting stories. More and more people can communicate. I send letters and emails to companies all the time; complimenting them, asking advice, telling them to stop being evil. Some companies write back. When I offered advice to a video game company, their lawyers turned it away. When I offered advice to eBay, their lawyers made me agree not to charge them for the advice. Two different strategies for dealing with customer feedback. Just like these two companies, you have limited time. So you decide ahead of time which strategy will you follow in rejection letters.

The more I read about successful authors and editors, the more they are portrayed as having thick skin. If they do not have thick skin, they are portrayed as being stubborn. Either way, they seem to keep editing and writing in a consistent way and not cave to "mediocre by committee". So much of what people deal with day in and day out is not the "lowest common denominator" but the "mode common interest". I often enjoy a best selling book. But I love finding a book my friends "love or hate."
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[info]gryphart
2008-06-12 05:18 pm UTC (link)
I know jack-all about writing, but the best feedback I've gotten about art was always specific. It's the difference between telling someone that, say, your manuscript's too long vs. your descriptions of places are too long. The people who gave me the vague comments all tend to blend together, and I try to apply them in a general sense, but the people who said something specific and actionable I remember and apply immediately.

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[info]raisinfish
2008-06-12 05:20 pm UTC (link)
(My experience is with novels, not with magazines.)

Personally, I think it's wonderful when an editor takes the time to tell me why the manuscript is being rejected, even if it's only a line or two. Usually at that point, I can't find the problems, and my (very sharp) writing group can't find the problems. So I like knowing.

But I also like criticism, and get excited when anyone can tell me what's wrong with my books, because that means I can FIX them. So I may be in the minority here.

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[info]apexdigest
2008-06-12 07:09 pm UTC (link)
Nice post.

I've never felt beholden to doling out advice. There's always good stories to buy. And besides, like you say, there's tons of advice on the net.

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[info]dr_phil_physics
2008-06-13 03:37 pm UTC (link)
I think it's too easy to say there's tons of advice on the web, so an editor doesn't have to do anything. But editors can choose to be helpful, and has been noted, sometimes it takes only a few words.

Reading advice is one thing, putting it into actual words-on-the-page is very different. Even after six weeks of a Clarion workshop, sometimes it's three years before you sit back and say, "Oh, so THAT'S what everyone was saying."

The real problem is that some writers get all frazzled or furious with any criticism. Nick Mamatas puts Rejection in the subject line of rejections, so that if you don't want to ever hear an editor's lame reasons for dissing your perfect prose, you can read the subject line and move on.

As for generic advice, I can personally assure you that just like "one-size-fits-all", it doesn't and can never fit all. Some of us write long (and probably should just write novels -- grin), and so everytime I cut 10%, I then go in and add 40% and make it a much better story. (evil-grin) My story which will be in the 24th WOTF anthology started out at 3000 words, got bounced at six markets at 11-13,000 words and became a Published Finalist at 14,000 words. So cutting isn't always the answer. (bigger-evil-grin)

Anyway -- while I might wish for a smidgen of feedback from every rejection, even to know if my submissions to that market are on or off the target paper completely, I take what I can get.

And sometimes you can be surprised when an editor, who's been silent through ten previous rejections, suddenly puts a comment in the e-mail or even a handwritten note on the rejection letter. That's pretty invaluable stuff.

Dr. Phil

*** This probably isn't as cleanly written as I'd like. Bunches of students are stopping in for help. (GRIN)

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[info]davefreer
2008-06-13 06:46 pm UTC (link)
vel a goot editor iss a dead vun... (back in your coffin, Vlad) Seriously, what a great editor does... is _structual_ edit and that is story specific, so is never standard advice. Eric is one of the best. If you are still needing major line edit, you're probably not really ready to submit.

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[info]ravens_writ
2008-06-19 04:21 am UTC (link)
(Yes, let's face it -- most of us ignore good advice more often than we take it. It's easier than actually having to make changes.)

Many of us are bombarded with advice, and immerse ourselves in books, yet still fumble around just shy of that golden draft that's worthy of publication. Part of that's not applying the advice correctly, but some of it's that we don't know who to listen to. In the case of editorial feedback, a wise writer always listens, 'cause this guys/gals the one with the keys to the story's future. They are the gatekeeper who we must get past.

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